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Bill Kleyman

Stack Wars: CloudStack vs. OpenStack

Bill Kleyman
dstrait
dstrait
7/12/2013 2:28:03 PM
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Why not more Eucalyptus?
Microsoft definitely sees easy migration between private and public clouds as a saleable feature. I think that Eucalyptus is a good way for Amazon to push into an area where they are weak: on-prem, private clouds.

I recall reading that Amazon and Eucalyptus have some sort of agreement with ech other. I presume this means that Amazon won't make some sort of wholesale change to their environment that would fatally break Eucalyptus.

BUT, I feel like Eucalyptus is not marketted well. Am I not following the proper blogs? 

If they would rebrand Eucalyptus as "AWS On-Prem", "AWS Local" or something, I think that more people would be aware of this solution. Amazon certainly has the money to buy Eucalyptus, if they decided to.

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Bill Kleyman
Bill Kleyman
7/15/2013 10:34:16 AM
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Re: Why not more Eucalyptus?
@dstrait - Excellent thoughts and examples. I should have just called this the "Cloud Platform Wars!" There are a lot of players entering the cloud model and are trying to provided that one single service to host them all.

In a way, this is a great thing for the end-user. As more competition tries to unify functions of the cloud - we the end-user will see all of the benefits. This means better service control, more resiliency, better management, and of course more interoperability. 

In fact, this is where we are seeing so many partnerships arise. Numerous organizations are funding cloud platform projects and - of course - folks like Amazon want in. I think their partnership with Eucalyptus is a solid move but it certainly does still need more development.

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Michael.Steinhart
Michael.Steinhart
7/15/2013 11:42:59 AM
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Re: Why not more Eucalyptus?
It's funny,  Bill, because they say competition is good for customers, and now we're saying that consolidation is good for customers. And they're both right. The question I have is -- will interoperability be driven primarily by the open-source movement, or will VMware and/or MSFT commit to supporting a wider range of hypervisors and platforms than they do already?

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Bill Kleyman
Bill Kleyman
7/15/2013 1:59:33 PM
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Re: Why not more Eucalyptus?
@Michael.Steinhart - You bring up a very good point! And, I just finished writing a blog for this site on this very topic.

Organizations like Google, MSFT and some others are actively trying to become your "Everything as a Service" provider. This means cloud, APIs, workloads, infrastructure and so on.

However, a lot of the movement in the cloud has been driven by open-source platforms. Furthermore, there continues to be direct drive from these products. Right now, it's a healthy market with open-source platforms making a real case for being the leader in the Stack wars. Cloud interoperatbility was really created on open-source platforms and enterprise organizations like VMware and MSFT are trying to jump on that bandwagon.

This might be by partnering... or by acquisition.

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Michael.Steinhart
Michael.Steinhart
7/16/2013 2:30:06 PM
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Re: Why not more Eucalyptus?
Speak of the devil... or the cloud management stack. I just got an email yesterday from Marten Mickos of Eucalyptus, detailing some of the new features in version 3.3:

 

I'm excited to let you know that Eucalyptus 3.3 is now available.  This new release implements important new AWS services that make Eucalyptus the ideal dev/test solution for AWS applications.   In 3.3, we extended our existing AWS-compatible features (EC2, S3, EBS, and IAM) with: 
  • Auto Scaling – scale resources up or down based on policies
  • Elastic Load Balancing – distribute traffic across multiple instances
  • CloudWatch – monitor cloud resources and applications 

And we also added: 
  • Resource Tagging – assign customizable metadata to resources
  • Expanded Instance Types –  to align with more instance types available in Amazon EC2
  • Maintenance Mode – perform cloud maintenance with zero downtime 

We invite you to take Eucalyptus 3.3 for a spin with our free FastStart download. Or if you are deep into source code, it's available for you to download as well. However you decide to approach Eucalyptus 3.3, it all starts here: http://www.eucalyptus.com/get-started

 

Enjoy the software, and let us know how you are using it!  Chat with us on IRC or email us. 

 

Kind regards,

Marten Mickos
CEO, Eucalyptus Systems

 

PS. We have an upcoming webinar on what's new in Eucalyptus 3.3 on July 25. You can register here: https://www3.gotomeeting.com/register/390293198

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Bill Kleyman
Bill Kleyman
7/18/2013 9:23:44 PM
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Re: Why not more Eucalyptus?
@Michael.Steinhart - Auto Scaling? Elastic LB capabilities? That's pretty advanced stuff. Plus that partnership with Amazon really pushes the Eucalyptus architecture to a new level.

Imagine the new types of business that can now literally be born in the cloud. How many websites, services and other cloud-ready platforms can benefit from this type of granular cloud control?

I wouldn't be surprised if more cloud management stacks follow the same style. Connecting API and cloud management stacks with cloud data center services is a pretty powerful and enticing offering. 

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Michael.Steinhart
Michael.Steinhart
7/23/2013 9:48:05 PM
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Re: Why not more Eucalyptus?
You hit the nail on the head, Bill. So AWS has that sort of ecosystem built out via Eucaplyptus and kinda-sorta plays nicely with others, too. VMware is trying to build out that ecosystem with its own cloud and by playing nicely with most "enterprise-class" IT vendor clouds. IBM is trying to build out that ecosystem with SoftLayer's cloud infrastructure and OpenStack. They're all aiming for seamless integration of on-prem and cloud.

That's my very simplified view of the space. Who'm I missing, and which steps?

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DavidAllen
DavidAllen
7/15/2013 3:44:24 PM
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Re: Why not more Eucalyptus?
Yes @Michael, both scenarios are correct! This is one of those occasions when there are two right answers to a single question and it just shows how diverse the market is at the moment. This is of course, where the industry wins and because they are winning the consumers are able to get a deal too, it's the perfect business package for now.

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Michael.Steinhart
Michael.Steinhart
7/15/2013 6:35:31 PM
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Re: Why not more Eucalyptus?
On the one hand, it's a perfect business package. I agree with that, in terms of the wealth of potential and value. But what about the uncertainty of the platforms? OpenStack is faring better right now, but there are many other platforms to choose from. How should a company go about evaluating and deciding?

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Michael.Steinhart
Michael.Steinhart
7/15/2013 11:40:51 AM
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Re: Why not more Eucalyptus?
Don't go looking at other blogs, dstrait! I interviewed Marten Mickos of Eucalyptus at last year's Cloud Expo, but he did not appear at this year's event. At the time, he made it clear that Eucalyptus was tied most tightly to AWS and was the best API for hybrid environments, but I haven't heard much from the company in recent months. What am I missing?

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Bill Kleyman
Bill Kleyman
7/15/2013 1:56:09 PM
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Re: Why not more Eucalyptus?
@Michael.Steinhart - You are correct in that Eucaplyptus is pretty much working directly with Amazon. You're also correct that their primary partnership revolves around an expanded API set.

And finally, it has been rather quiet on the news front. Since the March 2012 announcement - there really hasn't been too much else said. Wonder why that might be...

You don't think there's an purchase in the works here, do you?

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Michael.Steinhart
Michael.Steinhart
7/15/2013 6:34:11 PM
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Re: Why not more Eucalyptus?
That's the kind of speculation that could cause rumors to start, Bill! This is the latest news on the Eucalyptus site, and it's several months old. The upshot is that its fate is very much bound up in the fortunes of AWS. I don't think that's a bad bandwagon to be on, but it remains to be seen how large enterprises embrace cloud, and whether they opt for AWS or something more white-glove (IBM, for example).

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dstrait
dstrait
7/16/2013 1:00:16 PM
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Re: Why not more Eucalyptus?
Does "expanded API set" mean "undocumented API"?

Microsoft is infamous for using undocumented API calls to operating system code from their application software. It might be apocryphal, but I've been hearing this for twenty years at least. I know that many of the more zealously anti-MS people continue to use it as an example of poor behavior. 

If Eucalyptus is getting something that "regular" developers or companies aren't, it certainly tips the playing field.

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Bill Kleyman
Bill Kleyman
7/18/2013 9:20:12 PM
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Re: Why not more Eucalyptus?
@dstait - No.... I'm not a fan of undocumented APIs. I really believe in a world of a bit more standardization when it comes to cloud computing and APIs. I'm not anti-Microsoft, I'm just a fan of that specific process.

What Eucalyptus is doing is really the next step in the playing field. They're directly partering with data center providers - Amazon in this case - to deliver very powerful cloud solutions. Their latest 3.3 release basically creates an easy-to-manage, highly dynamic cloud platform. 

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Marten Mickos
Marten Mickos
7/17/2013 10:32:58 PM
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Silver
Re: Why not more Eucalyptus?
Thanks for all your comments.

 

Yes, Eucalyptus continues to be the only on-prem cloud platform with genuine AWS compatibility. Many of our customers move workload back and forth between AWS and Eucalyptus (AppDynamics, Mosaik Solutions, Nokia Siemens Networks, Raytheon, etc.)

 

Over time we will also support the APIs of whoever becomes the 2nd big public IaaS player. Today it just isn't clear who that will be.

 

As one person noted on this thread, we just shipped version 3.3 which brings AutoScaling, Elastic Load Balancing and CloudWatch to on-premise environments. You can download it and install it with FastStart and be up and running immediately.

 

Good feedback to us that we are not marketed well. We have been focused on building the best possible product and serving our customers. All suggestions and ideas are welcome! We are happy to answer any questions you may have. We are active on social media (Twitter, LinkedIn, Facebook, Google+, Quora, etc.) and I welcome you to follow us there. My own twitter account is @martenmickos.

 

Kind regards,

 

Marten Mickos

CEO, Eucalyptus

http://www.eucalyptus.com

 

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Michael.Steinhart
Michael.Steinhart
7/18/2013 11:14:37 AM
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Re: Why not more Eucalyptus?
Thanks for commenting, Marten! I hope the members here will take advantage of the opportunity to reach out and engage with you. 

In terms of perception, I think everyone who's familiar with the cloud ecosystem associates Eucalyptus with AWS and understands the tight relationship. But in terms of high-profile news, we haven't heard much from Eucalyptus, at least until the announcement of the 3.3 release.

I would love to hear more about the successful customer deployments you have in place. Perhaps we'll be able to host a radio or video program with you!

 

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Marten Mickos
Marten Mickos
7/18/2013 11:24:26 AM
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Re: Why not more Eucalyptus?
I'd love to. We can talk about AppDynamics, Mosaik, EvntLive, One Health, Codenvy, Riot Games, Ultimate Gaming, Rafter, etc.

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Bill Kleyman
Bill Kleyman
7/18/2013 9:33:11 PM
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Re: Why not more Eucalyptus?
@Michael.Steinhart - This type of platform is still picking up steam. There are a lot of new functionalities that have been introduced and really, they're only about a month old or so. 

Yes, we have a mature platform - but there were some big architecture improvements with 3.3. I'm pretty confident that we're going to see numerous deployments scaling many verticals. 

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Michael.Steinhart
Michael.Steinhart
7/23/2013 9:54:26 PM
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Re: Why not more Eucalyptus?
What do some of those vertical use cases look like, Bill? I know we discussed some in these blogs:

Cloud Outsourcing: 2 Use Cases


 

5 Use Cases for Cloud-Based VDI


Which industries do you think will adopt more quickly than others?


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Bill Kleyman
Bill Kleyman
7/18/2013 9:31:05 PM
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Re: Why not more Eucalyptus?
@Marten Mickos - "Ground to cloud" in no time. Pretty cool stuff. The new model for cloud management has to revolve around dynamic scalability and very efficient resource controls. 

Furthermore, more users than ever are needing direct visibility into their entire cloud environment to ensure optimal delivery services. The concept of autoscaling revolves around the further advancement within cloud computing automation. Couple that with dynamic and elastic load balancing and you have a cloud platform that is capable of provisioning and deprovisioning of resources as well as proper utilization of cloud workloads. 

Now, we have the direct integration with Amazon AWS and you create a truly unique type of cloud experiece. With so much new focus on the end-user, new types of devices, and the influx of people connecting to the Internet - more organizations are looking not only to get into a data center; but to get into cloud computing as well. This is a great way to jump in... quickly. 

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Michael.Steinhart
Michael.Steinhart
7/23/2013 9:50:46 PM
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Re: Why not more Eucalyptus?
I think that's a great summary of the value proposition, Bill, and the potential benefits. But what about the onramp? This is a question for you and Marten. What kinds of expertise does a company need in-house, how much can they get from MSPs or the channel, and what's a typical roadmap look like?

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Bill Kleyman
Bill Kleyman
7/25/2013 1:45:55 PM
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Re: Why not more Eucalyptus?
@Michael.Steinhart - There's always going to be a learning curve -- but it's not bad at all. In fact, a product like Eucalyptus has a "FastStart" program which can get you off the ground very quickly.

Just like virtualization, next-generation security, VDI and the cloud - platform management is a great area to start learning. What Eucalyptus, you're able to bring the true power of the cloud into your own data center.

It all comes down to use-case. If it makes sense - I say jump on it!

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dstrait
dstrait
7/23/2013 2:43:25 PM
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Re: Why not more Eucalyptus?
It's great to see your comments here, I've just followed both of those accounts.

As I was saying, I think that everyone knows about AWS, even people who have never heard of RackSpace or OpenStack. On the admin sites I frequent and the user groups that I belong to, even ones that are naturally Microsoft-negative, Eucalyptus doesn't have the mind share that I suspect it deserves.

IMO, Microsoft sees it's on-prem abilities as a major selling point. I've been watching a lot of videos from TechEd and Build in the last few weeks, and I'm more certain of this than ever. Microsoft's on-prem tools are solid, Azure seems like it will gain enough momentum to survive and they are looking to build tools to allow movement back and forth. Clearly, Amazon has no on-prem reach without something like Eucalyptus.

I think that there will be environments that will not (or can not) use public clouds due to (perceived or real) security issues for the forseeable future. By their nature, many of those environments will have money to spend. Eucalyptus seems like a product that Amazon would have to create if it didn't already exist.

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Marten Mickos
Marten Mickos
7/23/2013 9:08:38 PM
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Silver
Re: Why not more Eucalyptus?
I completely agree. Everyone knows AWS. It has an absolutely enormous customer base and ecosystem. AWS users who also need an "on-premise availability zone" come to Eucalyptus.

Microsoft has a good hybrid offering but it's Windows-centric.

VMware is working on their hybrid solution.

Other than that there isn't much in terms of hybrid offerings today.

BTW, I did a presentation on this topic for Goldman Sachs and their customers. The 7-page slide deck is here: 

http://www.slideshare.net/martenmickos/eucalyptus-201306-forgs

 

Marten

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Michael.Steinhart
Michael.Steinhart
7/23/2013 10:25:43 PM
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Re: Why not more Eucalyptus?
That's essentially the way I see the hybrid space shaping up, too, Marten. Thanks for the reality check! 

And thanks for the slide deck, too. I will check it out soon.

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Michael.Steinhart
Michael.Steinhart
7/23/2013 10:29:39 PM
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Re: Why not more Eucalyptus?
Okay, I couldn't resist, so I checked it out right away. I'm intrigued by the FastStart deployment tool and the VMware integration -- those are just the two things that jumped out at me. As Bill said -- this is very cool stuff.

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Michael.Steinhart
Michael.Steinhart
7/23/2013 10:23:20 PM
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Re: Why not more Eucalyptus?
That's an interesting perspective, dstrait. So now that it does exist, how big is the gap between the ballyhooed "seamless hybrid" environment that parses apps and data intelligently and divides workloads based on need and policy, and the reality of setting it up?

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dstrait
dstrait
8/1/2013 11:44:28 AM
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Re: Why not more Eucalyptus?
It's always difficult to translate demos and slides into how things work in the "real world". As I've mentioned, I have been watching a lot of TechEd videos in the last few weeks and the depth and breadth of features in Windows Server 2012 R2 and System Center is mind-boggling. They have come a long, long way in five years and I believe that they are going to be the target for others to emulate.

As Marten said, MS is windows-centric. (Too often, "Multiplatform" means "Windows 7 and Windows 8") They are touting improved behavior from linux virtual machines but you have to admin the environments from Windows. There are graphical tools and their are (Powershell) scripting tools, but these are Windows tools.

(Now that I think about it, there doesn't seem to be any .Net interface for this stuff. All that they every talk about is the Powershell interfaces, which won't be easy for non-powershell languages like perl, ruby or python to use.)

I do wonder. If it came down to it, would Microsoft be more willing to lose Windows Server or Azure (IaaS) as a product? If pushing Azure (to clients running linux VMs) meant cannabalizing Windows Server licensing, would they? What does the Azure-Windows relationship look like in 10 years?

The bottom line is that you never really know how something works until you are running it in production, with your code, your users, your workloads and your (or your cloud provider's) infrastructure.

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Bill Kleyman
Bill Kleyman
8/10/2013 11:53:48 AM
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Re: Why not more Eucalyptus?
@dstrait - "What does the Azure-Windows relationship look like in 10 years?" Wow... what a question. I think in IT - 10 years is like an eternity. I honeslty have a challenging time even looking 5 years out on some technologies. 

There are more users, a lot more data and new technologies that are capable of carrying information over vast, widely-distributed distances. In fact, a 2013 Cisco Cloud Index report indicates these growth factors specifically. The report goes on to indicate that cloud traffic has already crossed the zettabyte threshold in 2012, and by 2016, nearly two-thirds of all data center traffic will be based in the cloud. Remember, this is only 3 years out!

I really feel there will be a lot more transparency and unification within the cloud and cloud control platform. More integration will happen allowing organizations to deploy various workloads under a number of new circumstances. Right now - we have a lot of segmented systems being tied together is APIs and the article-mentioned Stack platforms. Soon, however, there will be even more cloud-ready solutions to make the whole experience even better. 

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jack90
jack90
3/8/2014 2:39:28 AM
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Re: Why not more Eucalyptus?
The biggest, challenging, further addictive rod total games always made! If you singular portray unique rod game this year this should be it.

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AlanMAC
AlanMAC
7/17/2013 11:49:20 AM
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Mirantis Fuel
I didn't see this mentioned.... but it's something I'm using as a base of the cloud infrastructure I'm developing currently. https://fuel.mirantis.com/

 

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Michael.Steinhart
Michael.Steinhart
7/17/2013 4:11:07 PM
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Re: Mirantis Fuel
Thanks, AlanMAC, and welcome to the site! Can you tell us a little bit more about the infrastructure you're developing?

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AlanMAC
AlanMAC
7/17/2013 4:22:01 PM
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Steel
Re: Mirantis Fuel
Hi Michael!

The infrastructure I'm developing is in conjunction with another company. We've decided Mirantis Fuel for the main reason that it's like the glue for all the OpenStack features. We'll be developing it rather simply, with 3 controller nodes and... for right now... 5 compute nodes. We will be using NAS4Free and making our own storage with SSD cache and two of these with HAST and CARP. The plan has come together... now we just need to secure the money. We won't be offering this to anyone and it will primarly be for our own use. The company I started is in the business for full IT Out sourcing. I have setup a home brew FreeSwitch deployment and active monitoring server and my buddy runs a hosting company. Although we have floated the idea of selling extra space.... we're wishy washy on if we want to do that or now. It would be an all you can eat type of offering where we would give you, say 8GB RAM and X amount of hard drive space as well as IP's as needed and you could install as many instances you need/want.

 

This is where Mirantis comes in, their "glue" makes all this possible without driving me too crazy.

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Michael.Steinhart
Michael.Steinhart
7/18/2013 11:09:55 AM
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Re: Mirantis Fuel
So you're building an IaaS cloud that you'll offer to select customers, AlanMAC? Or are you adding hosting/management services on top? Also, why would a customer opt to go with your service over a 'larger' one?

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AlanMAC
AlanMAC
7/18/2013 11:18:58 AM
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Re: Mirantis Fuel
Offering IaaS isn't our top priority. The setup will be mainly for our use, either hosted out of Denver or Seattle and we'll be providing services that we already offer. The IaaS offering is only a side effect. For instance, my co-conspirator has a couple of friends who pay him to use his servers. They develop on the VMs and use them for personal use. The same thing would go for us. We don't have any ambition to challenge the big guys and I doubt we ever will. Neither of our companies are out to raise enough capital to do so, as it would take quite a bit of money to challenge them. 

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Michael.Steinhart
Michael.Steinhart
7/18/2013 11:27:59 AM
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Re: Mirantis Fuel
That's a very astute observation, AlanMAC, and it sounds as though there's plenty of revenue to be had at the smaller-provider level without taking on any of the big players. 

Just so I understand - you're creating this environment for your own use, and your company provides outsourced IT services, yes? I want to get a better picture of how your environment will be managed and how it will be leveraged to drive your business.

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AlanMAC
AlanMAC
7/18/2013 11:54:54 AM
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Re: Mirantis Fuel
Yes, you are correct. Right now I'm using StyleXNetworks. I have all of my infrastructure on there, right now it's just FreeSwitch, Zabbix and OTRS. Our goal is to let Mirantis do it's thing by controlling firewall and all the networking services and having dedicated firewalls for the management network. 

The goal of this is to expand my services with private cloud services for small and medium businesses as well as any public service they provide. I outsource all my graphic and web design work to another buddy and his team of minions. I'll provide the infrastructure for these companies, setting up the server, apache or nginx and any database they'd like, while his team will setup the web site. 

We haven't gotten to the point yet where we're thinking about splitting up the private/public cloud services into two physically separate clusters of equipment. We probably will, but it will be setup exactly the same. 

All this infrastructure will allow me to offer full, in house managed services, focused at the SMB market. All the companies that I see that are doing the same type of thing as me either 1, just manage their services at the customer location, or 2, depend on another cloud provider. My plan is to get away from that and manage it all. It's more upfront cost, but by doing this, I believe I can keep my prices quite a bit lower and offer a much more customizable option to customers. I haven't ran the numbers on paper, but there is a bigger payout after a period of time. The "sister" company I'm working with, we have a two year plan, within that two year window, we will be deploying at least 1 of these systems in a data center. Within two years after that, our plan is to deploy a 2nd fully redundant system with the ability to migrate instances from one reagion to the other. 

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Michael.Steinhart
Michael.Steinhart
7/23/2013 9:41:06 PM
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Re: Mirantis Fuel
So you're building a hosted private cloud from the ground up, AlanMAC. Thanks for sharing the details with us -- I'm sure I speak for everyone when I ask you to continue updating us.

Now, some follow-up questions: 

1. How are the public and private services differentiated right now? Are you talking about shared app seats vs. dedicated instances?

2. When you say, "I haven't run the numbers on paper," you're being facetious, right? Is there no way to project income and expenditures?

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AlanMAC
AlanMAC
7/24/2013 12:36:45 PM
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Re: Mirantis Fuel
1: I'm talking about dedicated instances, where we will have two different infrastructures, 1 for just Public instances and another for just Private instances.

2: I'm not being facetious... my original business plan included a MUCH smaller virtual envirtonment and would just be used for my own business use, with no reselling to anyone else. I would setup PBX's and other instances for companies and manage them on that infrastructure... since then, my planning has changed considerably (I originally started down this road 3 years ago). Now I'm looking at deploying two separate infrastrucures and offering cloud hosting. Something which my original business plan did not account for. I had the numbers for my original plan, but not for the one I'm writing now though. It will work and I have no doubt it will be profitable, but I just don't have any idea about projected income and ROI. I'm still a year out from obtaining equipment... unless i win the lottery, guess I'd have to play first though. 

It's been a long road and an even longer one ahead, but I have no doubt that I'll be doing my own write up on this site a year from now and documenting my process. 

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Michael.Steinhart
Michael.Steinhart
7/24/2013 10:29:13 PM
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Re: Mirantis Fuel
I hope you don't wait a year, AlanMAC. The process you're working through and the changes to your business plan over the course of its development are fascinating. Do you think this kind of course change happens often when cloud entrepreneurs are building their businesses?

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Shepy
Shepy
7/22/2013 12:10:28 PM
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Promising
"The challenges: Even with so much adoption and development, OpenStack is still challenging to deploy. In many cases, it needs to be managed from various command-line consoles. Eight different modular components -- Compute, Open Storage, Block Storage, Networking, Dashboard, Identity Service, Image server, and Amazon Web Services compatibility -- comprise the fragmented architecture."

That modular take on it is interesting though, and should really leave the doors wide open for it to become quite the beast and incporporate so much more as it grows and matures.

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Michael.Steinhart
Michael.Steinhart
7/23/2013 10:04:55 PM
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Re: Promising
That's exactly how the platform evolved, Shepy. As each release came out, it was held up against CloudStack and VMware and compared, feature for feature and capability for capability. It was same way in the early days of Hyper-V, too. 

What I don't know, really, is how well the parts work independent of one another and whether mixing and matching is practical. Anybody care to take a crack at that?

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Michael Biddick, CEO of Fusion PPT and a speaker at the upcoming Interop and Cloud Connect Summit events, is joining The Enterprise Cloud Site community to share his advice on making a hybrid cloud work for your organization on Thursday, March 27, 2014, at 1:00 p.m. (Eastern).

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What lessons can today's enterprises learn from federal cloud intiatives -- successful and less so?
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